swish in a blocking design?
1
0
Entering edit mode
msll0802 • 0
@b66a8cc0
Last seen 2.7 years ago
United States

Hi

I would like to ask for how to perform swish with a design similar to limma blocking situation?

#  For example in the design below, the test needed is Disease vs Normal in Condition 
#  but multiple samples were taken from same individual.
#  I thought I could consider Patient as a secondary covariates, 
#  but the level is greater than 2 and swish will not run it.
   Patient Condition
1        1   Disease
2        1   Disease
3        1   Disease
4        2   Disease
5        2   Disease
6        2   Disease
7        3   Disease
8        3   Disease
9        3   Disease
10       4    Normal
11       4    Normal
12       4    Normal
13       5    Normal
14       5    Normal
15       5    Normal
16       6    Normal
17       6    Normal
18       6    Normal

Thank you very much

fishpond swish • 1.7k views
ADD COMMENT
0
Entering edit mode
@mikelove
Last seen 1 day ago
United States

Swish could handle an blocked design where e.g. there were two or more batches to control for and the comparison was Disease vs Normal. So balanced with respect to condition.

Here, you have replicated samples nested within condition, which Swish cannot control for with our existing methods. The best approach for these data is limma's duplicateCorrelation. An exception would be if you had e.g. before and after samples per donor, and donors were nested within groups -- this design Swish can handle with an interaction test. But here you don't have the comparison of interest within the donor, but across donors.

So unless the samples are technical replicates (just multiple sequencing runs but not distinct samples) then I would go with limma.

ADD COMMENT
0
Entering edit mode

Thank you very much for the reply. I ended up feeding multiple fastq files from same patients to salmon and setting large Gibbs samples (200). Not sure how it would compare with limma duplicateCorrelation, but will run both and compare.

ADD REPLY
0
Entering edit mode

There's an important modeling point here: are samples 1-3 biological replicates (different samples from same patient), or just 3 sequencing runs of the same library.

ADD REPLY
0
Entering edit mode

They are different samples collected from the same patient, hence, different libraries. Reading your swish paper, I was impressed by the huge performance advantage of swish in terms of sensitivity and FDR control when compared to limma. I am just curious even with the duplicatedCorrelation, will limma catch up with swish. It might be dependent on the variances in the samples from same patient. If they are very similar, is it a good a idea to treat them as technical replicates and use swish? Thank you again for comments.

ADD REPLY
0
Entering edit mode

Modeling the random effect -- if these samples are substantially different from each and not just Poisson variation that you could sum to create a new single sample per patient -- is very important and would take priority in my opinion, arguing for duplicateCorrelation.

Are you doing isoform level analysis? We found that Swish had strong control of FDR across the range of uncertainty that presented with isoforms, and we could do this without filtering out low features.

For the simulations in that paper, I think the gain in sensitivity for all the other methods (EBSeq, SAMseq, sleuth, DESeq2, swish) over limma was due to feature filtering.

If you are doing gene-level analysis, then this extra work to model uncertainty is less important.

ADD REPLY
0
Entering edit mode

OK, thanks for the insight about the filtering for the isoform and the paper. That is really helpful. I do plan to do transcript level analysis, both DTE and DTU.

ADD REPLY
0
Entering edit mode

As a pointer for future analysis, we did develop a DTU analysis within Swish, by converting the counts to isoform proportions:

https://mikelove.github.io/fishpond/articles/swish.html#differential-transcript-usage

But for this analysis, I think you'd need to use duplicateCorrelation().

ADD REPLY
0
Entering edit mode

Understood.

ADD REPLY

Login before adding your answer.

Traffic: 740 users visited in the last hour
Help About
FAQ
Access RSS
API
Stats

Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy.

Powered by the version 2.3.6