An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/bioconductor/attachments/20070503/ d3716f7c/attachment.pl

Dear Lev, Do _you_ see any problems with the plots? The idea of Bioconductor software is to provide tools for you to analyse your own data. To me your data look perfect. Best wishes Gordon On Fri, May 4, 2007 1:11 am, Lev Soinov wrote: > Dear Gordon and List, > > I have now found a way to show my plots regarding barley arrays, http://photo.all-faqs.info/. > They are: > - plotMA created with plotMA(fit_pair, array=4) > - boxplots and a density plot for RMA normalised and raw data > - MVA plots for RMA normalised data, created with mva.pairs(exprs(temp), log.it=FALSE) > > Could you, please have a look at them and see whether you find anything strange? > > My scripts for the analysis of the data and previous e-mails are below. > > With kind regards, > Lev.

Dear Lev, Just one final comment from me. You original question related to the difference between ordinary and moderated t-tests. The MA-plot that you give here would suggest that the the ordinary t-statistic result of 4000 down-regulated genes is completely spurious. The lack of any sizeable down fold changes would seem to show that the moderated t-test is correct for your data. Do you not agree? Best wishes Gordon At 01:11 AM 4/05/2007, Lev Soinov wrote: >Dear Gordon and List, > >I have now found a way to show my plots regarding barley arrays, ><http: photo.all-faqs.info=""/>http://photo.all-faqs.info/. >They are: >- plotMA created with plotMA(fit_pair, array=4) >- boxplots and a density plot for RMA normalised and raw data >- MVA plots for RMA normalised data, created with >mva.pairs(exprs(temp), log.it=FALSE) > >Could you, please have a look at them and see whether you find >anything strange? > >My scripts for the analysis of the data and previous e-mails are below. > >With kind regards, >Lev. > > > > > Thank you, > > Lev. > > > > Gordon Smyth wrote: > > >[BioC] paired design, LIMMA >Lev Soinov lev_embl1 at yahoo.co.uk >Fri Apr 20 12:37:40 CEST 2007 >Dear List, > I am learning about a simple paired design in LIMMA and am > playing with a small dataset of 6 Affymetrix barley chips, 3 > treated and 3 untreated. I have some problems with interpreting the > results and would be grateful for any comments/suggestions. > Experiment: sample pairs (treated & untreated) were prepared in > three biological replicates, using the same protocol (same > treatments, etc.) but separately from each other (in different times). > For all genes with negative fold changes, adj. p values for > moderated t statistics appear to be higher than 0.1 (the smallest > adj. p value among down-regulated genes is 0.139). Besides, only > two down-regulated probes have abs(logFC)>log2(1.5). > Questions: > 1. From your experience, is the fact that among significantly > regulated genes I only get up-regulated ones an indication of a > problem with the data (log_intensity plots and boxplots did not > flag up any significant problems)? > > > > Well, if this is biologically infeasible, then it would seem to > > indicate a problem. > > > 2. With moderated t-statistics I am getting no significantly > down-regulated genes but with ordinary t-statistics I get more than > 4000 down-regulated probes with adj. p <0.05. Is this common? > > > > Ordinary t-tests typically throw up a lot of spuriously DE genes, > > which have very small standard deviations, low fold changes and low > > expression levels. > > > > The difference here between moderated and ordinary t-test suggests to > > me that all the apparently down-regulated probes are in the lower > > expression range. This does suggest to me a problem with the data. A > > fitted model MA-plot might throw some light on the situation. > > > > Best wishes > > Gordon > > > I also wonder why the difference between adj. p values for > moderated and ordinary t statistics is so huge, i.e. moderated adj. > p values for down-regulated genes are all higher than 0.1, while > ~4000 down-regulated probes have ordinary adj.p<0.05. > With kind regards, > Lev. > Bioinformatician, UK. > I am using the following code (as described in the LIMMA user > guide, p.40, 8.3 Paired Samples): > memory.limit(size = 2048) > data<-ReadAffy(widget=TRUE) > sampleNames(data) > temp<-rma(data) > targets <- readTargets("Targets.txt") > Pair <- factor(targets$Pair) > Treat <- factor(targets$Treatment, levels=c("A","B")) > design <- model.matrix(~Pair+Treat) > fit_pair <- lmFit(temp, design) > fit_pair <- eBayes(fit_pair) > topTable(fit_pair, coef="TreatB") > >My targets file is: > FileName Pair Treatment > Bar18 1 A > Bar19 1 B > Bar20 2 A > Bar21 2 B > Bar22 3 A > Bar23 3 B > >Ordinary t statistics for paired test were calculated using: > >tstat.ord <- fit_pair$coef / fit_pair$stdev.unscaled / fit_pair$sigma > >p.value.ord <- 2 * pt( abs(tstat.ord), df=fit_pair$df.residual, > lower.tail=FALSE) > >pvalue.ord.adj <- p.adjust(p.value.ord, method="fdr") > >My data and session info: > >data > AffyBatch object > size of arrays=712x712 features (23770 kb) > cdf=Barley1 (22840 affyids) > number of samples=6 > number of genes=22840 > annotation=barley1 > > sessionInfo() > R version 2.4.1 (2006-12-18) > i386-pc-mingw32 > attached base packages: > [1] "tcltk" "tools" "stats" "graphics" "grDevices" "utils" > "datasets" "methods" "base" > other attached packages: > barley1cdf tkWidgets DynDoc widgetTools limma affy affyio Biobase > "1.14.0" "1.12.1" "1.12.0" "1.10.0" "2.9.8" "1.12.2" "1.2.0" "1.12.2" > >There are NO significantly down-regulated genes, see the TreatB column below: > > results<-decideTests(fit_pair) > > summary(results) > (Intercept) Pair2 Pair3 TreatB > -1 0 407 161 0 > 0 4 21977 22453 22819 > 1 22836 456 226 21 > >topTable (probe IDs are removed for brevity): > ID logFC AveExpr t P.Value adj.P.Val B > 1 1.4 5.9 15.2 0.0000002 0.003 5.3 > 2 6.1 6.7 14.6 0.0000003 0.003 5.1 > 3 3.1 6.4 14.3 0.0000003 0.003 5.0 > 4 1.2 7.6 12.6 0.0000010 0.005 4.6 > 5 3.0 7.7 12.4 0.0000011 0.005 4.5 > 6 1.5 4.6 11.7 0.0000017 0.007 4.3 > 7 1.9 6.7 11.1 0.0000026 0.007 4.0 > 8 1.0 4.6 11.1 0.0000026 0.007 4.0 > 9 3.3 5.2 11.0 0.0000029 0.007 4.0 > 10 1.8 7.5 10.1 0.0000055 0.013 3.6 > 11 1.5 6.4 9.5 0.0000089 0.018 3.3 > 12 1.1 8.2 9.4 0.0000097 0.018 3.2 > 13 3.5 6.4 8.4 0.0000223 0.039 2.7 > 14 1.0 4.4 8.3 0.0000256 0.040 2.6 > 15 1.1 6.4 8.3 0.0000260 0.040 2.6 > 16 1.8 4.6 8.1 0.0000290 0.041 2.5 > 17 0.9 9.4 8.0 0.0000345 0.044 2.4 > 18 0.9 6.9 7.9 0.0000349 0.044 2.3 > 19 4.5 7.2 7.9 0.0000372 0.045 2.3 > 20 1.0 7.4 7.8 0.0000397 0.045 2.3 > 21 0.8 7.0 7.7 0.0000437 0.048 2.2 > 22 2.1 3.4 7.6 0.0000484 0.050 2.1 > 23 0.9 6.5 7.2 0.0000701 0.070 1.8 > 24 2.6 6.0 7.2 0.0000734 0.070 1.8 > 25 0.6 9.0 7.1 0.0000781 0.071 1.7 > 26 1.2 5.1 7.1 0.0000808 0.071 1.7 > 27 1.3 6.5 7.0 0.0000867 0.072 1.7 > 28 1.5 4.8 7.0 0.0000891 0.072 1.6 > 29 3.8 5.2 6.9 0.0000945 0.072 1.6 > 30 2.3 6.0 6.9 0.0000959 0.072 1.6